This sub is delusional
Why?
Installing any operating system is often a hassle. This comes in part from my own experience trying to understand the unguided partition recommendations of a Bazzite (basically Fedora on low level) install. I got through it, but it was certainly no easier than Windows.
This isn’t true. Try Linux Mint or Ubuntu, their installers are much better. Those installers used by Fedora, RedHat, and even SUSE can be a bit weird.
They specifically say unbloated Windows as well which while it’s not as difficult as they make out is still somewhat annoying.
I’ve recently had a Windows installer fail to see my NVMe drives until I changed some random UEFI setting because it was missing a driver. Linux could see it just fine, as could Hirens boot.
Not to make a “Gotcha”, but Linux Mint was the other distro I tried, as I’ve complained about before. The first release I tried, which was less than a year old (on a 2+ year old computer) didn’t even run the wifi, audio, or bluetooth drivers correctly.
And, I had that same type of UEFI setting on Linux; Mint wanted to install on a GPT drive record, when my old drives (on Windows) used an MBT. It’s a conversion process both OSes will help with, but Mint gave some errors with it, and it was honestly easier to use Windows’ tools to get it done. Not even sure why Mint was insistent on it. Oh, and a mostly distro-agnostic annoyance: While attempting that conversion and making extra space for the GPT format, I ended up wiping more of the drives than needed during conversion because the partition manager used on several distributions uses bad messaging, and incorrectly refers to an individual partition under /dev/nvmesda0# as a “device”.
UEFI won’t boot from MBR drives unless it’s in BIOS compatibility mode. What format the drive is in isn’t determined by a firmware setting, though it can affect the boot process. I don’t think you actually understand what you are talking about here. The easiest way to install OSes both Windows and Linux is by wiping the drive, which would have solved this issue. Dual boot on single drive configurations normally have issues and will always be more complicated. It’s better to use two drives where possible in most cases. I suggest you read up on BIOS vs UEFI and how partition tables work if you want to do a complex setup like that.
Mint is known for having older kernels and therefore not supporting the latest hardware. They have a different edition for newer computers called Linux Mint Edge edition. Something Arch derived like CachyOS or another distro using recent kernels will always have the best support for bleeding edge hardware. The CachyOS installer is also pretty friendly, though maybe not as much as Mint.
Note that my post said “old drives” - plural. Mint was being installed on a secondary, formatted drive, and refused because that drive was not GPT-formatted (that record exists outside of the filesystem formatting). At the time, the BIOS was not set to force UEFI, so this was Mint’s decision, not the BIOS’s, and I don’t understand it. I left Windows alone on a different drive.
Believe me, I did plenty of reading up on BIOS UEFI settings just to resolve the issue. I still don’t claim to be a master, but I at least know enough to express how annoying the reconfiguration can be - independent of which OS you’re choosing.
Actually no. It’s not Mint’s decision whether to start the install USB with UEFI or BIOS. It actually depends on what the firmware chose to start and how the install medium is formatted. Some install media is only setup for BIOS booting, some for only UEFI, and some can do both. If the firmware detects the medium as supporting both then it should choose UEFI first but this depends on what settings you have in the firmware, and if you choose an option at a boot menu as boot menus allow you to override the default. When it comes to actually installing the OS most sane installation software will look at how it booted and install that way. So if it detects it was starting with UEFI it will configure the install to be UEFI, same if it was started with BIOS it will install as BIOS. How does it know? UEFI variables are one way. They can normally only be accessed if the system was started with UEFI.
If you truly wipe a drive you wipe the partition table as well. You say the table is outside the file system formatting, and this is sort of true, but they are both just data on the disk. Disk don’t care where the partition table ends and the file system begins. In fact you don’t even need a partition table at all. Unlike some other systems Linux will let you put a file system straight on the disk, the whole disk, with no partition table in sight. It’s not recommended mind you, because it will freak Windows out if it sees it. Windows will see it as a blank disk and not so helpfully offer to format the thing. When I say format a disk, I mean the whole thing, partition table and all. It’s also not possible to make a partition tableless disk bootable in UEFI. In BIOS it’s possible though as BIOS doesn’t read partition tables. It just needs a boot sector and that’s it.
Also if you’re trying to change a disk from MBR to GPT, and you don’t care about data, you shouldn’t be converting it. You should be formatting/wiping the whole thing and making a new partition table. Which is normally what it offers to do if you tell it to erase everything and install it.
Edit: Getting down voted for actually knowing how computers work and bothering to explain it. Shock horror.
Ubuntu install takes 20 mins, including download and burning the USB. Make it 30, maybe?
My only windows 11 install took 7 hours, multiple days, BIOS visits, searching for documentation and hair pulling, all with the same machine.
Yeah, there is a difference
Pretty sure mine took 20 minutes to burn to USB. Maybe I need better jump drives.
I believe your anecdote, but my Linux Mint install also took multiple days, BIOS visits, and lots of documentation searching. It’s a factor of how much the OS makers anticipated the specific hardware configuration and how out of date the partitions are configured.
My main point is that both can be frustrating, and there’s nothing consistent.
debian should be a bit higher on that list, but it’s still easier than installing windows.
Why? I use Mac mostly, but recently built a PC. I installed two Linux distros on it without even worrying about what drivers I needed, and I even have an NVidia GPU.
I also created a Windows partition and neither WiFi nor Bluetooth worked out of the box. Linux was objectively easier.
Man, I spent like six hours getting my network drivers sorted out on my last debian install, and I could never get them working on mint. Clearly, my experience shows that linux must be fucking impossible to install. /s
Yes, mint is a huge leap forward. No longer will my mother be calling me up at four in the morning in tears, asking why tar -xv isn’t working to extract her crochet pattern archive. Nor will I have to have friends drive over to my house with a USB drive so I can give them a properly formatted bootable, or have to help my nephew build out a custom ubuntu server image for the r810 he wants to runs his minecraft server on. Now, we have one powerful solution! Anyone can run it, it’s got a nice UI! There’s uniform tools to manage deployment and user accounts across your entire IT infrastructure! Plug it in and it just… Works…
Wait.
Wait shit that’s just windows.I use linux every day, and mint really truly is a very good choice of OS for the average consumer. But the reasons it is a good choice for the average consumer (ease of maintenance, ease of install, compatibility, community) are all the same reasons windows is a good choice for the average consumer (ignoring privacy and FOSS philosophy, because holy shit does the average consumer not give a shit). Windows can be a pain in the ass, yes. “DLL hell” is a term for a reason. But linux can be equally awful to deal with when it breaks, especially for an inexperienced or non-tech-savvy user.
This sub can get really up it’s own ass about how easy linux is to work with. And, from our perspective, sitting here with our Tux tramp stamps, having used linux for twenty years, it is that easy. But we forget that nothing about computing is intuitive to the average person. This kind of Linux Supremacy bullshit just further entrenches the idea that linux users are all sweaty basement nerds and turns the people that could actually benefit from ditching M$ Home for Mint away from all of us sweaty, arrogant losers.
Um… My grandma installed Windows 11 on her computer and then ran a simple script I gave her after. You guys are delusional.
Was it a script to install your own crypto miner?
Windows 11 without a Microsoft-Account = terminal required. Linux Mint = terminal not required.
brother, 99% of users will never even consider installing their own os. the issue isn’t that Linux is hard to install, the issue is that pretty much anyone brave enough to even mess with their operating system is either already on Linux, a boomer, or trapped by professional software that isn’t available on Linux (that’s me, a videographer)
the only way Linux is breaking out of extreme obscurity is if it starts coming pre-installed on commercially available and desirable hardware. the steam deck did more for Linux in a single product launch than the entire decade of combined efforts before that. before the deck i would have said it was simply never going to happen, but who knows. maybe it’ll be up to eccentric billionaires that never went public with their companies to push the Linux future we all want.
The Steak Deck motivated me to finally make the jump to Linux. Until people can buy a Linux PC at the local electronics store, Linux will always be in a niche. And that’s not happening any time soon because of anti-competitive practices by Microsoft.
Isn’t debloated windows just a regular windows install after running https://github.com/Sycnex/Windows10Debloater ? Is there more to it?
Biased as fuck lol. Installing windows is not difficult. I did it first time at the age of 8 witn WIndows 98 and their newer installers are made so the general public can do it. And the bloat and spyware? Thats windows dude. Its not meant to be your OS, its meant to spy on your ass at the benefit of being familiar and (relative) easy to use. Anything you do to it post clean install is your own tinkering. Linux distros are great yall, but install difficulty is not a metric I would use to attack windows. Comparing between distros makes sense.
This doesn’t say it’s difficult, just says there are others which are less difficult. Even if you accept everything at default, windows installs take much longer.
I’m not sure why you even think this is an attack on windows really. You keep saying windows is for those who want easy to use, so why not include the whole process?
Longer != difficult. Windows installs are easy as fuck and id say its as simple as linux mint.
The debloating is a choice and id say thats the same amount of work as installing stuff in linux because what it comes with is very limited.
Im a linux mint user btwIt’s easier than even mint. Because I’ve installed windows dozens of times and it has always worked out of the box. Always.
Friend gave me their old laptop that was sluggish and asked me to reinstall windows. I proposed Linux and promised them it’d work even better, they reluctantly agreed. I install mint. Sound not coming through headphones. I update everything that’s there to update, tried a bunch of shit and waste like an hour before I finally find a thread that suggested manually updating to a newer kernel version. That fixes it.
Now I know something extra for next time but if it were someone less stubborn, they’d have given up and went back to windows. Most people don’t know and don’t care about debloating, trackers and whatnot.
Tldr; Windows is the easiest OS to install because it works right out of the box. Many Linux distros are even easier to install, but don’t always work out of the box.
I believe you, but my experience is the opposite. Generally wifi doesnt work ootb on Windows for systems i’ve set up, and newer games are crashy until you install the latest chipset drivers. The drivers Windows installs seem to be many versions back and have been unstable IME
on Ubuntu or Fedora i’ve not had a single issue in over a decade. Not one time has a component not worked for me on the first boot. It’s been truly flawless. Games work at full performance right away.
My only possible explanation is that we must be working with pretty different hardware
Exactly. Linux mint was fine on my laptop, but only later i had to upgrade kernel for the amd drivers, but overall its the closest to a spotless experience ive had. But what you said is 1000% correct!
Linux has made leaps and bounds with usability and ease of installation but it’s no better than any other modern OS - which is a good thing. Installing Windows from a USB stick is not difficult - the simple path is literally, pick a language, select your wifi, choose who is logging in, click install and go grab a coffee. About the only difficulty if you can call it one is that some installs will ask for a serial number because it’s a commercial product.
Also, the number of questions & buttons during installation is one thing but the certainty of a functioning system is another. Linux is better at supporting old hardware, Windows is better at supporting new hardware. Choose accordingly if that matters.
I kind of miss the Win98 install process. I did it so many times… Tried making a Win98 virtual machine, but it just wasn’t the same without all the real floppies. The boot disk, the drivers. The JazzJ Jackrabbit shareware. Good times.
Linux installs like Ubuntu take about 20 minutes.
The last time I installed windows 11 (thank God only once) it took me a total of 7 hours divided over 3 days. It was hell, requiring multiple iso downloads, multiple tries to burn a USB with a variety of tools, loads of searching and reading documentation, multiple BIOS settings and a BIOS update, multiple install attempts, searching, downloading and installing drivers, then finally on the winning install it still took like an hour with god knows how many “fuck off and do your job” clicks.
Mind you, this was on the same machine where right before I installed Linux on a separate M2 device
Windows installations are a horror show.
I don’t even know what this graph is even supposed to mean. Bitch about Windows all you like but the installation process is typically very simple.
I guess it means that no one here knows what Windows Debloated is and didn’t read far down enough to see regular windows marked as very easy to install.
There is no X axis so I’m going to assume it means potatoes per guinea pig
Boot off usb, create partitions, wait, spend five screens clicking ‘no’ on all of the options, unplug ethernet so it allows you to make a local account, wait, login, spend 15 minutes uninstalling all of the preinstalled nonsense, disable all of the advertising on the task bar and desktop, pretend the rest of the telemetry doesn’t exist, download and install the latest drivers from each manufacturers website. Very simple.
Man. Last time I just wanted to check if my new laptop was working properly, so I booted up it’s preinstalled Windows. I literally had to look up how to get Windows to get me into Explorer without creating an account or connecting it to my network.
It took me about 25 minutes and Windows was already installed on the damn thing.
It took 15 minutes from booting a prepared Fedora stick to logging in.
I honestly believe that, by now, Linux is no more difficult than Windows. People are just not used to the differences.
I’ve never “debloated” Windows so idk about the top half.
The bottom half is accurate. Debian, Fedora, and Mint are easier to install than Windows 10 or 11. Not that Windows is difficult, it’s just a bit clunky and idiosyncratic.
I assume Microsoft doesn’t care much about the installer since it’s generally only used by OEMs, whereas for Linux distros it’s a first impression so it has to be polished.
No excuse though. Try the “install as oem” of Linux Mint. You get an install with temporary oem account, you can update the system, install additional programs, then click “Prepare for shipping to end user” and on next boot you’re greeted with a setup screen.
That sounds pretty nice. More installers should have something like that
It’s very user friendly. I switched last year and haven’t looked back. I game on it constantly.
I had to install Windows 11 on something a few weeks ago so I decided to do it without an account, it was nowhere near as difficult to do it as this sub would lead you to believe. Pressed a key combination to load up the command prompt then typed in a relatively short command. The GUI restarted and that was it.
Well, if you want accuracy, then no the meme isn’t really that accurate.
On an updated Win11 system the Shift+ F10 command prompt “OOBE\BYPASSNRO” trick still works to setup a new system without Internet (and by extension, without a MS account) so that’s like most of the battle right there
The rest is taken care of with your choice of debloat scripts that are out there
compared to clicking “next” on Fedora, Debian, or Mint
I’d say using a simple straightforward GUI is much easier than an arcane combination of commands and keypresses
Well, I didn’t say it should be ranked towards the bottom lol, if we want to make this graph accurate it would be below arch but above “Windows the normal way”
I think i misunderstood you my bad
I used AtlasOS on my windows partition. Had to cause for some reason steam streaming was borked and would only black screen. And now I’m too lazy to swap back over to cachyos. Lmao. Waiting to see that bug is fixed.
Mac users:
Where does a Hackintosh fall in?
At the top because you risk going to jail for violating the Apple terms of service/end user license agreement.
lol. They only ever pursed anyone for selling Mac clones or hardware for doing it. And the hardware was just a preconfigured usb drive with a motherboard connector on it. I think there were actual Apple devs moonlighting as hackintosh contributors.
You do not risk going to jail, come on lol. People are so dramatic about doing the most minor unenforced crimes I swear
The hardest one at all. You have to afford a new computer every 2 years.
I don’t think you know what a Hackintosh is.
This is also 99% of Windows users
Almost everyone using Linux installed it. Almost no one using Windows installed it.
Installing regular Windows 10/11 is definitely more than twice as painful than installing Debian 12.
Once, I was trying to install Windows 10 and wasted an entire day! The installation would systematically fail at the beginning of the installation with a BS error message that doesn’t give any hint about what’s going wrong. In the end it just didn’t like USB3 as an installation media! I reflashed it to a USB2 and it worked, but OMG was it super slow ! It took literally hours to install !!!
Debian, even as a noobie, you’ll go from flashing your ISO to a booted system within an hour. If you’ve done it once before, you will get it done in 20 minutes.
What the hell. I’ve never seen such an issue. Microsoft is so considerate; they provide us with cool little surprises like that from time to time. ♥️
It works over USB 3.0, it sounds like you just have a broken or corrupt drive.
It normal does work with USB3, yes. And no, this pendrive works perfectly fine and I’ve used it to install many other OSes since.
Edit: and I might add that I finally found the solution online so I was definitely not the only one confronted to this problem
What an absurdly sycophantic graph.
Where’s Arch if you don’t RTFM? (I mean we’ve got 2 windows install modes there… only fair)
I want to buy a Framework laptop soon. I have the option to choose which Linux distro is best for me and load that on.
Any suggestions?
Transitioning from Windows to Linux Mint was effortless for me, everything worked out of the box and i haven’t typed a line of code yet. All i’ve had to to do is install Diodon to get the clipboard history feature.
However all i’ve done with it is internet and office work, basic stuff. No gaming, no video editing, no 3D animation or any such. I think if you have a mature and complicated creative workflow it’s totally possible that you’ll struggle to move to Linux
I’ve heard Linux Mint is pretty straightforward. Might just go with it, at least at first. Thanks!
And yeah that’s what I would do anyways. Basically web surfing and whatnot
What are you intending to do with your laptop?
Mostly web surf, listen to music, take notes, do file organization, etc. I have my Steam Deck for gaming, and I’d probably use web-based apps for the engineering work I do before loading anything onto my laptop
But I may also want to download things like FreeCAD and other tools in the future
Any linux OS with a Desktop Environment will do that for you. If it’s a newer laptop you should probably go with Fedora and pick KDE Plasma desktop. Fedora has really good driver support for newer hardware and seems to work well with what framework laptops ship with.
https://fedoraproject.org/en/workstation/download
Linux Mint is also good however try to stay away from snaps starting out as they can cause confusing behavior due to how they’re implemented. A recent problem was Firefox from the snap store not working over VNC.
https://www.linuxmint.com/download.php
To be honest your best bet would be to search linux distros in the framework forums and see what they’re experiencing.
Good luck with your new laptop. If you’re doing CAD go for AMD as that seems to work better for GPU intensive workloads on Linux.
Appreciate the tips! Yeah I think the forums will probably be my best bet since they’re focused on application -specific solutions.
I think I’ll grab an AMD CPU with Fedora/KDE Plasma and go from there.
System76 has their own OS. You should start there and move on if you wanted to.
PopOS! Is not as user friendly as it seems to linux veterans.
Correct, horse battery staple! (Puns) I have had issues with it occasionally when I tried but it is a start.
I usually suggest linux mint with cinnamon desktop for casual users or Fedora with KDE Plasma for power users .
I still use Mint. Even though I’m having problems lately with mounting external drives. I mained Elementary OS for a while but something about it seemed…shallow.
External over USB or network?
External SSD in an enclosure. So, it says it has a bad sector or bad generic error. I’ll put it on my wife’s windows laptop and do a chkdmsk /f/v/r and it cleans nothing up. And then it’ll work one time in my Linux mint. When I use it on my windows 10 living room machine then back to the mint computer - same error.
As long as I don’t put it into a windows computer Linux mint is happy
Hey! You missed nixos!
First time install for smb. Double the windows Bar.
Second time (if you backed up your config file)
No bar!
